In this exclusive interview with Kathimerini, former European Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker asserts that Turkey has a role in Europe’s evolving “security architecture.” However, he condemns President Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s treatment of his political opponent, Istanbul Mayor Ekrem Imamoglu, asserting that it contradicts European values. He emphasizes that Europeans must play a key role in negotiations over Ukraine’s future – provided it can persuade US President Donald Trump and avoid acting like “dwarfs.”
Juncker also reveals that in his upcoming book on the 2015 bailout referendum, he provides a detailed account of his conversations with then-prime minister Alexis Tsipras. Notably, he highlights that his primary source of information was ordinary Greek citizens.
The US and Russia seem to currently be deciding the new world order. Where is Europe in this equation?
We are observing an increasing international disorder which is not something new, but it has worsened. And it is difficult for the European Union to find its place, but we have to play our role. Others are considering the EU as a payer but we have to be players, which is our natural vocation. What is new in this international disorder is that our old traditional ally, the US, is turning its back on the EU and in fact is supporting our now enemy, Russia. They are privileging their relations with Russia and neglecting the relations with the EU. And one of the reasons for that is that we behave like dwarfs, but we are not dwarfs. We are not from many points of view a giant, but a partner that has to be taken seriously. We have to be around the table when it comes to Ukraine. If we are not around the table, we are on the menu.
How can we secure our position at the table and convince Trump to listen to our arguments?
Trump is not listening to anybody when it comes to changing his arguments. If you want to be taken into consideration by Trump, you have to treat him with respect. He has been elected American president by the Americans, not the Europeans. He is not a stupid guy. But he takes no interest in international treaties, he is neglecting them, he wants to make deals. When I met him he told me, “We need to make a deal,” and I tried to make a deal with him and I was rather successful. And we have to make clear that we are representing something, not only 27 states but political unity. Trump and Putin don’t like the idea that the EU is an entity, they want to divide the member-states into individual partners and make deals.
So, for the time being do you believe that the EU’s approach toward Trump is the right one? What would you do differently?
Ι would treat him the same way I treated him when I was in charge of the Commission. I would not hide away, that is not the best way to exchange with Trump. So, don’t hide away, don’t be afraid. You have to have the same approach to him he has to you.
Do you believe that he will manage to get a peace deal, and at the expense of which side?
‘He is not a stupid guy. But he takes no interest in international treaties, he is neglecting them, he wants to make deals’
My impression is that he wants to conclude a deal with Russia at the disadvantage of Ukraine. And this is not the way sovereign countries should be treated. He has to accept that as we have the war in Europe he has to talk to the Europeans. And we have to explain this to him.
Talking about defense, we see Europe moving faster than ever with an unprecedented defense program. Is Trump perhaps accidentally pushing for the EU’s further integration?
The combination of the benign neglect of Europe by Trump and Russia’s aggression against Ukraine are two elements that are obviously pushing the EU into a direction of a stronger European defense pillar inside NATO. And we have to put in order our defense system, which is fragmented. We have 174 types of weapons inside the EU, we have 30 types of tanks in the EU and we are buying our military equipment outside the EU mainly from the US. This has to be changed, if we have to be able to put all these efforts together, streamline them and make things together we could spend 150 billion euros less than we spend now. This in fact is lost money and the fact that we are now moving to the right direction of a Europe of defense, it has to be welcomed.
What are your hopes and concerns for the EU?
There is an insufficient degree of solidarity among the member-states. Take, for example, the migration crisis, and it was impossible to organize the refugee crisis in a European way. I had proposed in 2015 to redistribute the refugees coming to Greece and to Italy in a way that the efforts could be equally distributed between member-states. Member-states did not want that, and we had to make huge efforts for them to understand that the migrant crisis was not Greek, but a European crisis. Things have improved, but we’re not there.
You mentioned the migrant crisis that happened in 2015. Ten years ago this summer will also mark the Greek bailout referendum. What were the mistakes that could have been avoided? And how do you respond to some of your Greek critics saying that you had been a little bit lax with Alexis Tsipras?
All the other Europeans are saying that I was too soft with Greece, not with Tsipras. Because I had some difficult moments to go through when I tried to keep Greece as a member of the euro area. With Tsipras I had good relations because it was my duty to have good relations with the Greek prime minister.
But I didn’t like his idea to submit a wrong paper by the way to the referendum. And he finally accepted severe conditions after the referendum as the situation was that 14 members of the Eurogroup wanted to refute Greece and he was convinced by force to do what had been done. But the main merit as far as Greece’s recovery is concerned is a merit that honors the Greek people, not so much those who were governing in former times and during Tsipras’ times. The successive Greek governments have failed, and the Greek citizens paid the price.
Have these sacrifices been vindicated?
Greece is performing well, growth is OK, the public debt is going down, unemployment has been reduced. I do think that Greece can be proud of what they have achieved in heavily difficult conditions.
You are currently writing a book for that period. What do you reveal that we don’t know? When is it expected?
I am describing all these in too much detail because I am describing the post and the day after, I met Tsipras 12 times only in the year 2015. With no other political leader did I have so many meetings as those I had with Tsipras… 20 phone calls and so Greece doesn’t have any kind of secrecy, you know. And what I did, and people don’t know – which I also write in my book – twice per week I was phoning Greek people that I didn’t know. I used a telephone book. I wanted to know what was happening, what their life was; something that the troika guys didn’t do. I was talking to ordinary Greeks, mainly to the poor Greeks and they became my major information source. The book was supposed to be ready in 2021 but due to some health issues that I dealt with successfully two months ago, it has been delayed.
‘I always told Erdogan that he has to change attitude towards Greece’
We will have to offer security guarantees to Ukraine as Europeans. Will a European accession of Ukraine be a security guarantee and how feasible is that?
I don’t think that the moment has come that Ukraine could become a member of the EU tomorrow morning. The economy is not as strong as it should be before becoming a member, the internal rule of law is not respected enough and Ukraine has a serious problem of corruption. I wouldn’t say that Ukraine is a corrupted country, but it has a serious problem, and we should not promise Ukraine something that we cannot implement. It is clear that it has a clear-cut European perspective but in my suggestion would be to have Ukraine becoming partly a member. Not entering the EU institutions but in different spheres of European policy they should be allowed to attend our meetings but not to vote. To make clear that the European perspective is not a lie, but a common duty by Ukraine and the EU. So, let them slowly become a member until the day they become a full member.
Could partial membership be the case for other aspirant candidate member-states, like Turkey?
No. Turkey has a European perspective too, but they are farther away from the EU than Ukraine. I was working hard with Turkey to convince them on the necessity of reforms, I always had good relations with Erdogan. In the last years of my mandate they were less developed than before as I don’t like this Turkish behavior, when it comes to Greece. The way Turkey is humiliating Greece whenever it has the possibility to do so is not compatible with European values. So, I always told Erdogan that he has to change attitude towards Greece, which is a member and they are not a member.
How do you see Erdogan’s behavior toward his opponents, like the mayor of Istanbul?
That was a disaster. I don’t know what they are putting in question about the behavior of Istanbul’s mayor. It is totally against European values. And he is in prison now, as I understood, and this is unacceptable. The rule of law is a real issue and as long as they are not changing their behavior in that respect there is no way to become member of the EU. By the way, as I was always discussing with Erdogan all the problems circulating around Turkey’s EU accession, I had the impression that in fact he doesn’t want Turkey to become a member, he wants to accuse Europe that we are preventing him from becoming a member.
Could that behavior be an argument for EU member-states that are seeking closer cooperation with Turkey, especially in defense programs, at the moment?
A number of member-states have always been critical when I tried to have deeper relations with Turkey. And I don’t think that the member-states can be convinced by the contribution of Turkey to the European defense. But they have a role to play in that field. There can’t be a European security architecture without Turkey. So, we have to respect them for their military power. But this is not a reason to become a member of the EU. They are members of NATO, and they should behave like loyal members of NATO, they are not always doing it in all these fields, as they have to do it.